“Ukrainians do not like to be pitied, but want to inspire the world”

One of the most popular weekly programs in the West about the war in Ukraine is the British podcast Battleground: Ukraine. Over 2.5 million people have downloaded their apps in the last 9 months. Twice a week, the hosts of the podcast discuss the daily events of the war in Ukraine – missile attacks, the specifics of heavy Western tanks, or draw scenarios of a counteroffensive and a potential tribunal. Voice of America Ukrainian Service journalist Yaryna Matviychuk spoke with the host of this podcast about whether there is war fatigue in the West, what Ukrainian topics are most interesting for a foreign audience, and why he believes that the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be successful, even if it will not liberate all the occupied territory.

Iryna Matviychuk, Voice of America: Patrick, thank you for agreeing to the interview with Voice of America. Tell us how the idea for your podcast came about? Why about Ukraine?

Patrick Bishop, host of the Battleground: Ukraine podcast: The idea was to apply a historical approach to understanding the situation in Ukraine, we were very impressed by what is happening there. But over time, it turned into a weekly discussion of events taking place in Ukraine. We analyze, discuss the events of the week, compare with what happened before and try to analyze a little deeper. We also invite guest experts who know the region or the military aspect of the topic we cover. These are historians, journalists, people who have certain special knowledge, cyber experts, quite a wide spectrum. We are trying to get into the details.

IM: And you also communicate with the audience?

P.B.: Yes, listeners send us questions on the Internet. Unlike traditional mass media, we try to get to the bottom of the issue. And they write to us that it is good to have such a constant analysis of the situation, where they try to understand what is happening.

I.M.: You create content about Russia’s war in Ukraine for a foreign audience. Who are the people listening to your podcast? How many are there and where do they live?

P.B.: We create two episodes a week. Our audience is the English-speaking world, it is very dispersed geographically. We are listened to quite a lot in Britain and the USA, Scandinavia, New Zealand, there are people in Ukraine, even in Russia.

If you look at who comments or asks questions on the air, it is mostly men who are interested in military issues

There are also a few women. Many of our listeners, it seems to us, are either in military service, or work in the security sector, or are interested in military issues. As a rule, they are quite informed. In fact, we often get stories from them. And some of them send really good insider information.

IM: And how many people listen to you?

P.B.: We are now at 100,000 people a week and growing. They started with 20 thousand about 9 months ago. Hopefully, when the counteroffensive starts, if it hasn’t already started, we’ll have a spike in listeners, then it will drop off a bit again. We don’t feel like we’ve reached the peak of our audience yet.

A total of 2.5 million people have downloaded our episodes since the podcast began.

IM: What sources of information do you use and how do you study the topic of discussion? Because most of the information about the war in Ukraine is still created in the Ukrainian language.

P.B.: These are English-language mass media, experts, many experts in Ukraine speak English, we also have friends who explain some things.

So far we have been lucky with experts. We only had one person that we interviewed in advance, but we didn’t use him on the air, because he turned out to be a kind of conspiracy theorist.

We don’t really have much time for research, we both have work. For example, I am a writer of historical books and I am currently writing a book. But so far we haven’t had any problems with it. There are many friends, acquaintances, historians. Very popular among the audience are foreigners who live in Ukraine or are on the front lines, who talk about the experience of the war, how Ukrainians treat it, how they treat President Zelensky, talk about cultural, social and military life.

IM: How do you try to maintain a balance? Are you telling the Russian point of view? Do you invite Russians to the studio?

P.B.: We don’t pretend to be balanced. I don’t think we can be balanced when dealing with a situation like this. And we are not ashamed of it. We are on the side of Ukraine. We are trying to understand what is happening from the Russian point of view. But we cannot verify this. I think it would be silly to pretend that it is possible to treat both sides equally. Here is a question of good and evil.

I think the Russian government in its current state is the enemy, but we do not feel bad about the people of Russia.

We say this: we are on the side of Ukraine, but we want to listen to what is happening in Russia, we want to analyze it dispassionately, and at the same time we do not say that there is some degree of rightness on their side, because there is none.

IM: Some say that there are good Russians and bad Russians. Do you believe in this?

P.B.: Yes, I believe it, and there is a lot of evidence for it. There is a word that, in my opinion, will be very appropriate for Russia – it is a deceived society. You have to have a certain amount of sympathy for Russian history – it’s a history of terrible governments oppressing their own people, whether it’s the Communists or the kleptocrats who currently rule the country. There must be some compassion at the heart of it. But you have to ask yourself: why did the Russian people allow themselves to be ruled in this way?

You can’t judge all people, obviously there are many ordinary people out there who are victims of what is happening. Not to the same extent as the Ukrainians, but they must be seen as part of the history of oppression.

I.M.: But some of these victims of oppression go to Ukraine, etcUkrainian women are raped.

P.B.: I in no way justify what the Russian military is doing. When I hear that they have lost a lot of people, I think that is good, it will hasten the end of this war. They are in a foreign country, they lack standards of military discipline and morality.

With such groups as “Wagner”, which the state not only tolerates, but actually uses and offers them a place in society. This is a group of psychopaths led by one of the most famous psychopaths in modern history. And they are not just tolerated, they are actually celebrated and encouraged. So, this says something about Russian society.

I.M.: Do you experience difficulties when you need to explain to a foreign audience some sensitive points for Ukrainians, for example, the language issue or the influence of the church, in particular, the Ukrainian-Russian church?

P.B.: These are topics that are actually very interesting to our audience. It seems to me that many people in the West now have a question: are we being painted an overly idealized picture of Ukraine, maybe the reality is not as rosy as it is presented in the media? And one of the aspects of this is the question of whether Ukrainians are trying to build a monoculture that excludes everything Russian. After all, there were stories about the confiscation of Russian-language books, great Russian writers, the demolition of monuments, etc. In Britain, this is quite a hot topic, because people from the British past were erased from history. There is a certain interest in this.

We invited experts to the program, people who know Ukraine well, who explained what is actually happening in the Orthodox Church, what are the subtleties here. We had time to talk about it in more depth to understand some of the nuances, subtleties and depth of what is happening.

I think that yes, there is a certain de-Russification, which under the current circumstances is not only justified, but also understandable. But if we take into account Ukrainian history, Ukraine cannot be monocultural, with its different traditions.

Ukrainians, to a certain extent, do cultural pruning, removing signs and symbols of Russian oppression.

I.M.: You started the podcast sometime in September of last year, has there been any trend during this time regarding the topics that are most interesting to the foreign audience about Ukraine?

P.B.: Events on the battlefield are always of great interest. Also, the question of a counteroffensive today is on everyone’s mind. There are huge expectations that have been fueled for the past few months.

I think one of the reasons for this is that while Western support is not entirely dependent on Ukraine’s success, Ukraine needs to show some signs of progress on the battlefield in order to retain not only political, military, and economic support, but also public support in the West, which in turn forces its politicians to realize that they must support positions that will develop for Ukraine in some positive way. I think the Ukrainian leadership, military and political, understands this better than anyone.

I.M.: In American politics, there is a section of people who believe that it is necessary to reduce aid to Ukraine and strengthen inspections of weapons sent to the country. In Europe, in some countries, there are many pro-Russian views. Are these people in your audience?

P.B.: We had people saying why America bears the biggest burden in terms of military aid to Ukraine. Why isn’t Europe doing more? And this point of view has the right to exist. I think Europe really needs to do more.

But that is quite different from saying that America should have nothing to do with it at all. There is this sentiment on the American right, it’s troubling, but it’s something that has been in the tradition of American politics for centuries. You look at the First World War, America was very reluctant to enter the First World War. She also reluctantly joined the Second World War. So the tradition of isolationists has been around for a long time, and it always will be.

I.M.: What is your feeling, to what extent the foreign audience understands what is happening in Ukraine.

P.B.: Our audience is overwhelmingly on the side of Ukraine. Almost everyone understands the essence of the war, that what Russia has done is unforgivable.

There is little support for the view that Ukraine somehow caused it on its own or that the West caused it for Ukraine by encouraging NATO expansion.

I think the basics of this story are pretty well understood and accepted.

I.M.: Does the West feel tired of Ukraine?

P.B.: Yes, I think it is inevitable in any conflict. This always happens. People have their own lives, their own concerns, you can’t expect them to constantly think about events in Ukraine. I’m actually pleasantly surprised at how long the interest and concern has lasted. Of course, in our personal experience, we do not feel any fatigue from Ukraine.

I.M.: The image of Volodymyr Zelenskyi is perceived differently in the West and in Ukraine. In your opinion, what is the reason for the great admiration of the Ukrainian president in the West?

P.B.: I heard about it. Western audiences compare his style of communication, patriotism, courage, he is perceived as a person who speaks the truth. And he is compared to Putin. They believe that it is better to be ruled by someone like Zelensky than someone like Putin.

I.M.: You talked to many people, experts about the situation in Ukraine. You have been to wars as a journalist. What are your personal feelings when this war might end? And as?

P.B.: No one knows this. I sincerely hope that the counteroffensive will be devastating for the Russians, leading to a Russian collapse.

I do not think that the balance of power is such that Ukraine can force the Russians out of their country.

The most that can be hoped for, and there is a strong possibility that it will happen, is that there will be a devastating defeat in the battle, which will lead to a decline in fighting spirit among the Russians. And then we may see some political movements in Moscow where the military or the security elite may turn away from Putin.

Not because they are against the war or sympathize with Ukraine, no. It’s just Putin, the Putinists don’t show results, so some kind of coup could be the result of a defeat on the battlefield. This, in my opinion, is the most likely scenario if Ukraine wins on the counterattack.

I.M.: Thank you for the conversation.

See also: The balance of forces on the battlefield, the counteroffensive of the Armed Forces and possible scenarios: assessments of a British historian